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XTriller's New CEO on Its Metrics and Music Controversies and the Company's Fight Club Plans
Sam primarily covers entertainment and media for dot.LA. Previously he was Marjorie Deane Fellow at The Economist, where he wrote for the business and finance sections of the print edition. He has also worked at the XPRIZE Foundation, U.S. Government Accountability Office, KCRW, and MLB Advanced Media (now Disney Streaming Services). He holds an MBA from UCLA Anderson, an MPP from UCLA Luskin and a BA in History from University of Michigan. Email him at samblake@dot.LA and find him on Twitter @hisamblake

Since acquiring a controlling stake in Triller in 2019, Hollywood financier Ryan Kavanaugh and his partner at Proxima Media, Bobby Sarnevesht, have transformed the company. They've made at least five acquisitions, expanded the scope of their platform far beyond short-form, user-generated music videos and reportedly explored going public. Earlier this month, they brought on a new chief executive, Mahi de Silva, who took the helm from Mike Lu, who is now president and focused on investor relations.
De Silva, who joined Triller's board at the same time Kavanaugh and Sarnevesht took control, offers a decidedly different tone than his predecessor Lu. The former executive for Verisign and most recently the head of Bay Area-based Amplify.ai, a digital chatbot tool that lets brands interact with customers, De Silva said he's focused on creating strong relationships with partners after some very public disputes.
Mahi de Silva is Triller's new CEO.
Universal Music Group pulled its extensive catalog off the app in February, claiming that Triller "has shamefully withheld payments" and that its public statement about the situation was "removed from reality." Late last year, Wixen Music Publishing sued Triller for copyright infringement, and Triller has been called out in the past by the head of the National Music Publishers' Association for playing loose with its copyright obligations.
Triller, which launched in 2015, originally focused entirely on helping musicians create mobile video content but has expanded into livestreaming, live entertainment and even TrillerTV, which includes long-form content, including its own boxing brand, Triller Fight Club.
Along the way, Triller has faced accusations of inflating its user figures and flouting the need for proper music licensing.
Nevertheless, Triller has continued to grow its user base and balance sheet. As of late 2021, the company claimed around 18 million daily active users and 65 million monthly active users. That is well short of the many social media companies with which de Silva hopes to compete. dot.LA interviewed the new CEO to discuss his plans to change that, his views on Triller's public disputes and whether rumors are true that Triller plans to go public.
This interview has been edited for clarity and brevity.
Triller now looks like much more than a short-form social video app. Was that the plan when Ryan and Bobby got involved and brought you in as a board member?
Mahi de Silva: The original thesis was to say, look, we think we can do this better than it being a simple short-form video app. If you think about the progression of YouTube to TikTok – and we have to give TikTok credit; they've done a pretty good job of taking content, making it super bite size, and making it easy to consume – we felt that we could help curate content, particularly bringing in tier-one, top-shelf content, and creating kind of a gateway to broader content, whether it be long-form or even movies. I think the reason Ryan brought me in was that back in the early 2000s, when I ran the wireless business at VeriSign, I built the largest ringtone business in the world. And it was about taking the power of music and making it into these super bite-sized things that were part of your mobile phone experience and it blew up and we built that into half a billion dollar a year business. So it was kind of a confluence of all of that, and being able to bring content and creators together to drive better awareness, better distribution, better monetization of that content.
Boxing isn't exactly a growth industry. Why was that the choice as the first step toward expanding your entertainment footprint beyond music?
Mahi de Silva: Boxing is iconic when it comes to pay-per-view. We saw an opportunity particularly in working with folks like Mike Tyson, to create really a tentpole event out of that. But we've taken a very different approach to boxing: the theatrical production of the event, the camera angles; it's using the most sophisticated technology that you'd see in very high-value production television and movies enter into the sporting arena. We also brought in lots of different artists, lots of different voices, that would appeal to an audience that wasn't a boxing fan. It's the ability to broaden the appeal of an event like this, and then really understanding how people respond to it.
To what extent do you see that expansion into different types and formats of entertainment playing into the Triller app?
Mahi de Silva: The center of our universe today is the app, so the first thing we do is we put the world's best creator tools into the app, so it's super easy to use the content you might have on your phone or the content you created, be able to integrate that with video, mix it, do effects, do filters. And then we do this unusual thing which is we make it easy for you to spread that anywhere and everywhere. You can send it to Instagram and YouTube and Snapchat and wherever you want to. We think by doing that, we are creating a different sort of distribution strategy for creators. And at the same time, we're creating tools where creators can track those posts, those shares, and draw more consumers into that content, and try to create a more lasting relationship with them. So it's not this, "let me go and build my Instagram audience, my Snapchat audience or my TikTok audience"; we're trying to enable them to think about, "okay, here's my content, here's where I distribute it, and here's my audience." We also want to help them monetize that in different ways. We think about the network effect starting with our app, but syndicating content all over the digital universe. And we also think that that snacky, 10-15 second video can be parlayed into more long-form experiences. You can do that even on our platform, moving from the short-form to TrillerTV, or being part of the content that we create for these pay-per-view types of experiences. Today that could be everything that's enabled in the FITE TV world, things that are created through the Verzuz world, and on these other platforms as well.
Sources have told me that Triller has been looking into going public, through a SPAC. Is that still the plan?
Mahi de Silva: We're at that magic threshold where as a company, we have the income statement – in terms of revenue, earnings, growth potential – we have everything that you need to be a U.S. listed public company. So whatever vehicle we use to get there –whether an IPO, a SPAC, a direct listing – we've been very thoughtfully exploring all those options, and doing the right thing for both our shareholders and what's in the best interest of creating a growth vehicle for the company.
Do you expect Triller to go public one way or another this year?
Mahi de Silva: The timeline is something that we're not wedded to, because the public markets have different envelopes of opportunity. But we certainly think that it's possible to do it this year.
Triller has faced accusations that it's inflated its user accounts and shunned the need for proper music licensing. Why do you think the company continues to find its way into the middle of so many controversies?
Mahi de Silva: Those types of controversies are almost inevitable in a) the fact that we play in a very competitive environment, and b) everybody has a different way of measuring things. I think where people tend to get a little sideways is that we've talked about total engagement numbers, and we've talked about app engagement numbers, and those numbers are different. One of the reasons I'm here as CEO is to bring a little bit more rigor into how we do planning, how we focus on priorities and what numbers are really meaningful from a monetization standpoint, and what we make public.
As to music licensing, the labels are some of our most important partners in this journey. We absolutely take music licenses very seriously. I think we have disagreements with some of these entities because they look at numbers that maybe may have been talked about, like the total engagement numbers, versus what happens with content on our app. But we are quickly converging to resolving some of those, I'd say, misunderstandings. We totally embrace license holders and we think we're one of their most important partners.
Universal Music Group had some pretty harsh words for Triller, calling the company's response to the spat over publishing rights "removed from reality." As a board member at the time, were you concerned about that? And as CEO, do you see yourself in a position of power to try to correct some of those characterizations?
Mahi de Silva: I stand behind the conduct of the company throughout the history, ever since I've been involved, ever since Ryan and Bobby have been involved, about being very forthcoming about the facts of our business. Never have we tried to deceive anyone in the industry, particularly those people that we have commercial relationships with. Many of us have been in this business and had to negotiate these licenses. I myself, like I mentioned, in the ringtone business, negotiated with all these companies. Unfortunately, there's a tactic that says that, look, I'm going to use public opinion or sentiment to shape the outcome of a commercial relationship. And it's unfortunate when it gets to that. There may have been some misunderstandings, but we will quickly resolve them and we'll continue to have a very fruitful relationship with the labels.
What kind of misunderstandings are you referring to?
Mahi de Silva: This notion of what are the total users, how many people are we touching, in terms of our reach, with our network and our content, versus what is the reach of the app and what should be counted in the licensing conversation.
But the criticism that Triller received was related to its statement that it didn't need a license with Universal (note: Triller's statement at the time included, "Triller does not need a deal with UMG to continue operating as it has been since the relevant artists are already shareholders or partners on Triller, and thus can authorize their usage directly. Triller has no use for a licensing deal with UMG."). What's your view about the conversation escalating to that level?
Mahi de Silva: People try to use the public and press sentiment to try to shape commercial relationships. It's unfortunate that we get into that kind of noise. It's all just kind of positioning; it's not based in any kind of reality. The fact of the matter is we work with a very, very broad spectrum of creators and content. We want to facilitate the legal exchange of that content across our community of creators and users. So we want to invite in the maximum amount of content on our platform. If there are certain parties that feel they need extraordinary compensation to have that content work in our ecosystem, then they need to be ultimately disabused of that idea. We're not about trying to create an un-level playing field for folks that create, produce and distribute content. We're trying to democratize that. We think that there are very sane, fair terms to do that. We've been able to agree with a vast majority of content licensors around that concept, and I'm very confident that we'll do that with just about everyone.
You mentioned you're going to be bringing more rigor to the numbers. Would you say your style is a little different than Mike's? Was he a little more prone to getting involved in some of these public disputes than you plan to be?
Mahi de Silva: I think Triller has assembled a really amazing team of operating execs. We all have our strengths, we all have our weaknesses. I think the things that may be different is that a CEO kind of tries to set the tone, because our job is to create followership. As much as we like to lead, you have to have followers that buy into a vision and buy into a strategy. And I'm confident that we'll be able to bring that about.
- Triller Acquires Hip Hop Battle Platform Verzuz - dot.LA ›
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- Triller's CEO on 'Baseless' Music Infringement Claims - dot.LA ›
- Triller Acquires Two Startups and Gets a New CEO - dot.LA ›
- Triller Strikes Deal with Universal Music Group - dot.LA ›
- TrillerNet Is Reportedly Planning to Go Public - dot.LA ›
- Triller Abandons Reverse Merger, Plans To Go Public via Direct Listing - dot.LA ›
Sam primarily covers entertainment and media for dot.LA. Previously he was Marjorie Deane Fellow at The Economist, where he wrote for the business and finance sections of the print edition. He has also worked at the XPRIZE Foundation, U.S. Government Accountability Office, KCRW, and MLB Advanced Media (now Disney Streaming Services). He holds an MBA from UCLA Anderson, an MPP from UCLA Luskin and a BA in History from University of Michigan. Email him at samblake@dot.LA and find him on Twitter @hisamblake
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Genies Wants To Help Creators Build ‘Avatar Ecosystems’
Christian Hetrick is dot.LA's Entertainment Tech Reporter. He was formerly a business reporter for the Philadelphia Inquirer and reported on New Jersey politics for the Observer and the Press of Atlantic City.
When avatar startup Genies raised $150 million in April, the company released an unusual message to the public: “Farewell.”
The Marina del Rey-based unicorn, which makes cartoon-like avatars for celebrities and aims to “build an avatar for every single person on Earth,” didn’t go under. Rather, Genies announced it would stay quiet for a while to focus on building avatar-creation products.
Genies representatives told dot.LA that the firm is now seeking more creators to try its creation tools for 3D avatars, digital fashion items and virtual experiences. On Thursday, the startup launched a three-week program called DIY Collective, which will mentor and financially support up-and-coming creatives.
Similar programs are common in the startup world and in the creator economy. For example, social media companies can use accelerator programs not only to support rising stars but to lure those creators—and their audiences—to the company’s platforms. Genies believes avatars will be a crucial part of the internet’s future and is similarly using its program to encourage creators to launch brands using Genies’ platform.
“I think us being able to work hands on with this next era—this next generation of designers and entrepreneurs—not only gets us a chance to understand how people want to use our platform and tools, but also allows us to nurture those types of creators that are going to exist and continue to build within our ecosystem,” said Allison Sturges, Genies’ head of strategic partnerships.
DIY Collective’s initial cohort will include roughly 15 people, Sturges said. They will spend three weeks at the Genies headquarters, participating in workshops and hearing from CEOs, fashion designers, tattoo artists and speakers from other industries, she added. Genies will provide creatives with funding to build brands and audiences, though Sturges declined to share how much. By the end of the program, participants will be able to sell digital goods through the company’s NFT marketplace, The Warehouse. There, people can buy, sell and trade avatar creations, such as wearable items.
Genies will accept applications for the debut program until Aug. 1. It will kick off on Aug. 8, and previous experience in digital fashion and 3D art development is not required.
Sturges said that the program will teach people “about the tools and capabilities that they will have” through Genies’ platform, as well as “how to think about building their own avatar ecosystem brands and even their own audience.”
Image courtesy of Genies
Founded in 2017, Genies established itself by making avatars for celebrities from Rihanna to Russell Westbrook, who have used the online lookalikes for social media and sponsorship opportunities. The 150-person company, which has raised at least $250 million to date, has secured partnerships with Universal Music Group and Warner Music Group to make avatars for each music label’s entire roster of artists. Former Disney boss Bob Iger joined the company’s board in March.
The company wants to extend avatars to everyone else. Avatars—digital figures that represent an individual—may be the way people interact with each other in the 3D virtual worlds of the metaverse, the much-hyped iteration of the internet where users may one day work, shop and socialize. A company spokesperson previously told dot.LA that Genies has been beta testing avatar creator tools with invite-only users and gives creators “full ownership and commercialization rights” over their creations collecting a 5% transaction fee each time an avatar NFT is sold.
“It's an opportunity for people to build their most expressive and authentic self within this digital era,” Sturges said of avatars.
The company’s call for creators could be a sign that Genies is close to rolling out the Warehouse and its tools publicly. Asked what these avatar tools might look like, the startup went somewhat quiet again.
Allison Sturges said, “I think that's probably something that I'll hold off on sharing. We will be rolling some of this out soon.”
- Bob Iger, Former Disney CEO, Joins Avatar Startup Genies - dot.LA ›
- Genies Raises $150 Million To Make Avatars For The Metaverse ... ›
Christian Hetrick is dot.LA's Entertainment Tech Reporter. He was formerly a business reporter for the Philadelphia Inquirer and reported on New Jersey politics for the Observer and the Press of Atlantic City.
Here's What To Expect At LA Tech Week
Christian Hetrick is dot.LA's Entertainment Tech Reporter. He was formerly a business reporter for the Philadelphia Inquirer and reported on New Jersey politics for the Observer and the Press of Atlantic City.
LA Tech Week—a weeklong showcase of the region’s growing startup ecosystem—is coming this August.
The seven-day series of events, from Aug. 15 through Aug. 21, is a chance for the Los Angeles startup community to network, share insights and pitch themselves to investors. It comes a year after hundreds of people gathered for a similar event that allowed the L.A. tech community—often in the shadow of Silicon Valley—to flex its muscles.
From fireside chats with prominent founders to a panel on aerospace, here are some highlights from the roughly 30 events happening during LA Tech Week, including one hosted by dot.LA.
DoorDash’s Founding Story: Stanley Tang, a cofounder and chief product officer of delivery giant DoorDash, speaks with Pear VC's founding managing partner, Pejman Nozad. They'll discuss how to grow a tech company from seed stage all the way to an initial public offering. Aug. 19 at 10 a.m. to 12 p.m. in Santa Monica.
The Founders Guide to LA: A presentation from dot.LA cofounder and executive chairman Spencer Rascoff, who co-founded Zillow and served as the real estate marketplace firm’s CEO. Aug. 16 from 6 p.m. to 9 p.m. in Brentwood.
Time To Build: Los Angeles: Venture capital firm Andreessen Horowitz (a16z) hosts a discussion on how L.A. can maintain its momentum as one of the fastest-growing tech hubs in the U.S. Featured speakers include a16z general partners Connie Chan and Andrew Chen, as well as Grant Lafontaine, the cofounder and CEO of shopping marketplace Whatnot. Aug. 19 from 2 p.m. to 8 p.m. in Santa Monica.
How to Build Successful Startups in Difficult Industries: Leaders from Southern California’s healthcare and aerospace startups gather for panels and networking opportunities. Hosted by TechStars, the event includes speakers from the U.S. Space Force, NASA Jet Propulsion Lab, Applied VR and University of California Irvine. Aug. 15 from 1 p.m. to 5 p.m. in Culver City.
LA Tech Week Demo Day: Early stage startups from the L.A. area pitch a panel of judges including a16z’s Andrew Chen and Nikita Bier, who co-founded the Facebook-acquired social media app tbh. Inside a room of 100 tech leaders in a Beverly Hills mansion, the pitch contest is run by demo day events platform Stonks and live-in accelerator Launch House. Aug. 17 from 12:30 p.m. to 3 p.m. in Beverly Hills.
Registration information and a full list of LA Tech Week events can be found here.
Christian Hetrick is dot.LA's Entertainment Tech Reporter. He was formerly a business reporter for the Philadelphia Inquirer and reported on New Jersey politics for the Observer and the Press of Atlantic City.
Rivian Q2 Earnings Are a Much-Needed Nothing Burger
David Shultz is a freelance writer who lives in Santa Barbara, California. His writing has appeared in The Atlantic, Outside and Nautilus, among other publications.
Rivian, the fledgling electric vehicle startup in Irvine, CA, released its Q2 earnings yesterday. I’m happy to report they’re pretty boring! There were no big surprises from RJ Scaringe’s EV hopeful, but here are the report highlights:
- ~$15 billion of cash, cash equivalents, and restricted cash as of June 30 2022.
- 98,000 net R1 preorders
- Amazon has ordered 100,000 electric delivery vans
- Rivian has produced 8k vehicles so far
- The company is still on pace to deliver 25,000 vehicles in 2022
- -Actual revenue was $364 million.
If you’ve been paying close attention to Rivian, none of these numbers are new or surprising. Revenue was a bit higher than anticipated–about 10% more than the $337.5 million expected. But even with the revenue bump, the company remains heavily in the red—as expected. Rivian lost $1.7 billion in Q2.
At its current burn rate, Rivian could run out of cash in about two and a half years. Obviously, the company will need to increase production to avoid this. Part of that effort will involve the company’s third consumer vehicle, the R2, which will be cheaper than the R1T and R1S models currently on offer. R2 production is expected to take place at Rivian’s gigafactory in Georgia, set to come online in 2025. Scaringe has indicated he believes the company has sufficient cash on hand to reach that milestone.
Rivian’s stock price has remained basically flat since the earnings call–a welcome change from the company’s turbulent spring. In the run up to the earnings call, some analysts were forecasting as much as a 12 point swing in either direction.
Boring Q2 numbers may actually be a good sign for the embattled EV maker. An even better sign would be positive cash flow, but the newest numbers indicate that milestone is likely still a few years away at the very least.
- Rivian Delays SUV Delivery - dot.LA ›
- Electric Vehicle Startups Aren't Immune to the Market Plunge - dot.LA ›
David Shultz is a freelance writer who lives in Santa Barbara, California. His writing has appeared in The Atlantic, Outside and Nautilus, among other publications.